A Push and a Shove, and the Land that We Stand on is Ours

[dotinthesky]

I just witnessed teenagers attack a group of men in the No. 8 bus. I was on my way home from Brick Lane (having left Kevin behind because he has a larger tolerance of crowds than me), staring out of the bus' window, when I heard a teenage girl talking loudly into her cellphone. She was screaming "how could I call you if your mobile was turned off?" If you've seen the Vicky Pollard skit in Little Britain, multiply that by a 100 and you get the idea.

She kept up the loud behaviour, enliciting giggles from her two friends, until a man talking on his cellphone described her as "trash". After some abuse thrown at him, because how dare him call her "trash", she seemed to move her attention somewhere. The bus then stopped, and as he leaned down to pick up a box of flowers he had bought, she said "take your flowers and go home." Understandably, he stepped on her foot as he walked away; she stood up with a scream and shoved him. His friend, looking completely bewildered, got two shoves and pushes from her, to the sound of her friends laughing. They were proper violent shoves that made one of the guys hit someone sitting up ahead. If that wasn't enough, she then stood up on a seat and tried to spit at them through the window, calling them "cunts".

As you can imagine, I desperately wanted to grab her by the hair and punch her face. Perhaps I'd be applauded by the horrified bus; perhaps I'd end up in the nearest police station. Honestly, with a trip to Brasil just around the corner, I couldn't take the chance of getting in trouble.

Who, in their right minds, calls a London teenager "trash" to their face? They were obviously new in town.

Comments

[thirstypixel.livejournal.com]

*Cringe*

[suede.livejournal.com]

I hate to find myself in these kind of situations, I am a totally coward so I probably would have hiden under my seat XD

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

Same here. The violence happens in my mind, every time. But I could never translate it into an action.

[suede.livejournal.com]

We won't use guns,
we won't use bombs,
we'll use the one thing we've got more of
that's our minds.

♥

[amberholic.livejournal.com]

Tsk tsk... rookie mistake.

When coming across chavs or pikeys, don't look them in the eye or that'll provoke them. Just smile and stare on ahead. At least that's what Catherine Tate tells me and she tends to be right about these things.

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

C. Tate is very wise.

[olamina.livejournal.com]

the guy sounds like he deserved it. from where i stand, he clearly started it.

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

He started the violence by stepping on her foot, but only after she had verbally abused him for minutes; and he described her as trash, but only to someone he was speaking to on his mobile phone, which she overheard and took as her cue to verbally attack him.

I can understand him calling her trash because she really was driving everyone nuts in the bus with her behaviour. And I can sort of understand him stepping on her foot as his patience coming to an end (though it's a shame he didn't step harder and break her foot.)

[olamina.livejournal.com]

I don't think calling her trash was appropriate or necessary. Nor was stepping on your foot. I think it was classist and misogynist bullshit. If I was there I probably would've cursed him out at least. Chavs are sometimes annoying but people need to stop with the wholesale abuse on them, it just maintains/feeds into an unnecessarily hostile dynamic. Everyone thinks it is cute and funny t o laugh at chavs from that Little Britain skit all the way down. I think it is a cop-out. If understand being mad at the behaviour but to call the person trash? That woman is someone's child and maybe someone's mother and she is important to someone somewhere. This guy is operating from a place of anger basaed on a lot of stuff that had nothing to do with the woman. And stepping on her foot? Not OK. I woulda got up out of my seat and shoved him hard for that.

New York is a bigger denser city than London and this kinda stuff doesn't happen. Why? Because we all focused on respecting each others' space both verbally and physically. That man way overstepped his boundaries and I hope he catches a stray brick to the head.

[olamina.livejournal.com]

This entry just confirms my suspicions that all this reporting about increased violence in UK, is a product of the patent British racism and classism that has ruled the day for many a century. British bullshit is on the rise once again and I'm saddened that I've not seen many people out in the streets decrying it. People are at home watching concerts for a dead princess and laughing at caricatures of poor people instead of addressing the real issues.

I reiterate: I hope that guy from the bus (and everyone else like him) catches a stray rock to the head. He and his pearl clutching, wannabe toff behaviour are the problem. He's the real trash.

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

You don't live here and although you have visited often, your perception is still that one of an outsider.

This particular incident has nothing to do with racism and classism. Like I said, it's about respect and how people react to aggression. Notice how I didn't even mention these people's ethnicities! The fact that you made that jump says alot more about you then myself or anyone else living in London.

"I" statements please

[olamina.livejournal.com]

I am not saying this particular incident was one of racism. I am talking about the whole news reports I am reciving about everyone being up in arms over hip-hop (read: BLACK)-related violence. Part of the "joke" on chavs seems to be "ha ha,look at those silly poor white kids acting black". Racism and classism (and sexism and homophobia) are INEXTRICABLY tied together, yes. But I NEVER assumed anything about the ethnicity of anyone in THIS particular incident. YOU assumed that I assumed. I wasn't crying racism on this matter.

*

I agree it WAS a matter of respect, and if the guy had any SELF-respect he would've either gone up to the woman and made his concerns known in a civil manner or kept his mouth shut. He clearly said it within earshot of the woman and clearly didn't care if she heard it. So he should live with the consequences of his actions. I've seen this kinda stuff go down before (though rarely to this level) and this dude was being a passive aggressive jerk. Maybe the girl was outta line and obnoxious but this guy is IN NO WAY innocent just because he was a middling passive/aggressive a-hole with a box of flowers.

Re: "I" statements please

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

If you are not saying that this particular incident was one of racism, why did you write earlier: This entry just confirms my suspicions that all this reporting about increased violence in UK, is a product of the patent British racism and classism that has ruled the day for many a century. It sounded to me like you were equating my "reporting" with others which you have read about violence in the UK, coming to the conclusion that I was making some racist and classist point. My assumption was based on your statement.

Black-related violence has been almost exclusively bound within black communities, with kids in gangs killing each other. And the perception of Chavs in London, as far as I know, is not bound by class or race but by attitude and education. You can have a millionaire who's a chav, for example, as well as someone black or asian. Chav is about a certain style and behaviour which, unfortunately, translates to an obnoxious attitude at times. I find it actually hard to define a chav sometimes, because many of the eastern european immigrants dress similarly (track suits, etc) as well as many middle-class kids who wish to imitate the style.

I live in a council tower block. My neighbours are from Asia and from Africa; they work as janitors, taxi drivers, etc -- basic, working-class professions. They would have been as horrified as I was by the behaviour of those teenagers, especially because education and respect seems to be important in their families (I gather from conversations I've had with them). Perhaps those girls even came from a better off background then the men they attacked. After all, they all lived in the East End, not exactly the most affluent part of London

As I said somewhere else, i wouldn't have behaved as the man did; I would have called the police instead. But I can see where he was coming from - he was pushed and he snapped. Notice as well that they did nothing when she started pushing and shoving them, and spitting out of the window at them. Her response was disproportionate.

[olamina.livejournal.com]

oops spelling error found. second sentence should read: "Nor was stepping on her foot."

next time I'll spellcheck ,sorry

[olamina.livejournal.com]

also "I understand being mad at the behaviour, but to call the person trash?"

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

If you had been there, you would have watched in horror at the behaviour of this girl. She wasn't behaving like a typical chav; she was on overdrive, screaming and shouting, making a complete nuisance of herself. It was parody times a hundred. The person on the mobile phone must have asked him "what's that noise?" to which he said "some trash on the bus", or something similar. He had every right to speak his mind; why shouldn't he? Why should she be allowed to disrupt everyone's peace, make the journey on a public bus uncomfortable? Why should he whisper into his mobile phone so not to offend this highly offensive individual? Why should people take that kind of verbal abuse without speaking up?

In London, we are constantly burdened with people playing loud music in buses, being verbally abusive, throwing chips on people's heads -- all kinds of behaviour that receive only silence in response. Perhaps he should have been more polite and asked her to be quiet, but I think he was completely in his right to describe her as trash to his friend on the phone. The fact that she then took that as a reason to up her voice and cover him with verbal abuse was horrifying to watch. Everyone was incredibly tense and disgusted with her behaviour (which was encouraged by her two laughing friends.)

As I mentioned in the post, he was carrying a large box with flowers. Did he step on her foot on purpose? Probably. But maybe it was an accident since he was trying to maneuver out of the bus carrying the box. Again, her reaction was completely over the top -- extremely violent and disgusting to witness. Everyone watched in silence and didn't say a word. Was her behaviour acceptable? Absolutely not.

To me, it had nothing to do with class or misoginy. It was one person disrespecting another. I can see your point about him starting it (i.e. giving her rope to escalate the abuse); in his place, I would have asked the driver to stop the bus, and I would have called the police. But people behave differently under stress and I really can't fault him for reacting to her the way he did.

avoiding the double blackmail

[olamina.livejournal.com]

I am not saying she should be able to be a nuisance. I am not excusing anything she did. She was wrong. She sounds like a hot damn mess, but the man was also wrong. The way the guy DEALED WITH IT did in no way, shape, or form solve the problem. Rather it just fed into business as usual. With you lot on the bus, pearl clutching and teeth sucking and tsk tsk-ing at what you deem "typical chav" behaviour, this man's actions helped maintain/reproduce the status quo. What he did was middling and boring and mundane, but violent nonetheless. The very violence which I assumed the nation was trying to move away from. The very violence that the news reports claimed the government was so stressed and overburdened over. Of course this all is to do with classism and misogyny! Nothing happens in a vacuum. There are overlapping systems which I wont bore you with because you are a smart man and know all about it.

Re: avoiding the double blackmail

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

To me, it was a repeat of various scenes I've witnessed on public transportation, where teenagers are violent and abusive. Every single time, people remain quiet out of fear of getting into a fight, getting knifed etc. There's no sense of moral support, of people standing up together and demanding those teenagers are thrown out, etc.

I agree that the man was wrong to respond because, ultimately, it fed into her attention-seeking behaviour and pushed him into a position where he took her abuse and couldn't do anything in response without ending up in prison.

Re: avoiding the double blackmail

[olamina.livejournal.com]

There's no sense of moral support, of people standing up together and demanding those teenagers are thrown out, etc.

I agree that people should be coming together to address problems of poverty, crime, and social unrest however his man's behaviour did nothing to rally the moral support you are speaking of. His behaviour served to further isolate and polarize people.

Also, I am interested to know why you didn't get involved....

Re: avoiding the double blackmail

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

I didn't feel like it was possible to argue with her. Even before her altercation with him began, her entire attitude was very aggressive and not open to "discussion". It's just impossible to argue with teenagers when their mode is showing off for each other, or displaying bravado in public because of some twisted idea about "respect".

I was once in a bus where I witnessed a teenager threaten an old lady. She spoke back at him and he made a gesture at her like she was dead (pointing his finger at her as if it was a gun.) There were two teenagers at the back laughing at the old woman, encouranging this guy. When I looked at them, one of them started harassing me, saying "you are marking my face? Well, I marked your face". I knew that if I had challenged him, or spoke back, nobody in the bus would have stood by my side. I didn't think it was worth it, considering the amount of people who make it on the news as a victim of public transport violence.

With what happened yesterday, we just sat there as if watching a movie, tense... just one thinking leading into another. Honestly, when she started hitting them and spitting, I thought they would call the police. But they didn't, the bus moved on, and soon it was my turn to get off. I didn't think it was worth challenging her and getting some of her spit.

bollocks

[mirple.livejournal.com]

at least he stood up to her. i kind of like that. I take it he wasn't British. we always mind our own business - even when sometimes we shouldn't.

er...

[mirple.livejournal.com]

maybe i should have read the comments between you and other LJers before i posted - they have made me think. having said that, i don't know whether the incident is being over-intellectualized. she shouldn't have been so obnoxious, he shouldn't have called her trash and stepped on her foot, she shouldn't have reacted so aggressively. the way she was behaving would have irritated, even annoyed me. i may even have made assumptions about her in my head that may have been judgmental and unfair. but i wouldn't have approached her politely or otherwise. i really and truly don't know if that's right or wrong.

Re: er...

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

Ultimately, I think both of them were wrong. But, in the heat of the moment, it definitely felt like he was re-acting rather acting.